AltsDb is now WealthChannel! Please visit our new website at www.wealthchannel.com.
Investors are shifting to alternative investments to enhance returns, generate income, and provide diversification from traditional investments such as stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. An alts-focused portfolio also offers investors opportunities to defer and/or reduce their tax liabilities. But how does one invest in these funds and use them to balance a portfolio?
Michael is co-CEO of Origin Investments, co-chairs the Investment Committee, and oversees investor relations, marketing and company operations. Michael brings 25 years of investment and risk management experience to Origin.
Click the play button above to listen to our conversation.
- Trends High Net Worth investors should consider as they begin to allocate more funds to alternative investments.
- Broader benefits of owning private real estate and how to use those assets to build wealth.
- The different types of private real estate and their risk/return profiles.
- Investing in alternative illiquid asset classes and the spectrum of illiquid strategies.
- Opportunity Zones as a socially conscious form of real estate investing with high rates of return.
- How High Net Worth self-directed investors get started in private real estate.
- Why alternative investments make a portfolio more resilient in times of market volatility and recessions.
Featured On This Episode
Industry Spotlight: Origin Investments
Origin Investments helps High Net Worth investors, family offices and registered investment advisors grow and preserve wealth by providing best-in-class real estate solutions. They are a private real estate manager that builds, buys and lends to multifamily real estate projects in fast-growing markets throughout the U.S.
Learn More About Origin Investments:
- Visit Origin Investments
- Follow Origin Investments on LinkedIn
- Follow Origin Investments on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram
- Email Michael: [email protected]
About The Alternative Investment Podcast
The Alternative Investment Podcast covers new trends in the alternate investment landscape. Hosts Jimmy Atkinson and Andy Hagans discuss diversification opportunities in the alts universe, including direct investments, DSTs, opportunity zones, private equity and more.
Jimmy: Welcome to The Alternative Investment Podcast. I’m your host, Jimmy Atkinson.
Andy: And I’m your co-host, Andy Hagans.
Jimmy: There are many benefits to owning private real estate. Tax efficiency is one of the key benefits that we’ll be discussing today with our guest, Michael Episcope, co-founder and principal at Origin Investments. Michael joins us today from Chicago, Illinois. Michael, welcome to the show.
Michael: Thanks for having me, Jimmy.
Jimmy: Absolutely, Michael. Pleasure to have you here with us today. You’ve been a friend of mine in the Opportunity Zones industry for the past couple of years, and you’ve been on my podcast there. So happy to pull you over now into The Alternative Investment Podcast with my co-host, Andy Hagans. To get us started today here, Michael, let’s discuss tax efficiency in a few minutes. But first, I want to talk about just the broader benefits of owning private real estate. In your mind, what are the benefits of owning private real estate?
Michael: Well, I think the benefits of real estate or what everybody is looking for in investments is that you want appreciation on your capital and you want to generate income, and you want to do it in a very tax efficient manner. And I think at a 30,000-foot level, you have choices. You can go into stocks, you can go into credit, and you can go into bonds, things like that. You can go into other alternative investments, venture, things of that nature. And there’s a choice. And when you look at sort of asset allocation and where real estate fits in the portfolio, I think, you know, over the last 20 years, there’s really no other asset class that has done as well. And I find it intriguing because real estate is supposed to be this hybrid between bonds and stocks.
And if you think about the efficient market, really, if you have an asset class with risks between bonds and stocks, because you have fixed leases that act more like bonds, you have a piece of real estate that can be valued, you also have cash flow, tax efficiency, etc. But the reality is that real estate has actually outperformed both bonds and stocks over the last 10, 20, 30, 40 years on an absolute and a risk adjusted basis. So it’s been a phenomenal way for wealthy individuals to grow their wealth, to generate tax efficient income, passive income, and really pass money on to future generations because of a step-up in basis and a very favorable tax code for the asset. So there’s a lot of reasons why real estate should be liked, why it should be in a portfolio. And those are all the reasons why I started investing in it personally, why we started Origin. And I think that’s why a lot of investors come to us because we exist to help High Net Worth investors, also High Net Worth family offices, advisors, clients of advisors to grow their wealth and generate passive income through real estate. That is what we do.
Jimmy: That’s phenomenal. Let’s zoom out a little bit, Michael, and get a little bit of background on you before we continue on with learning more about some of the benefits of owning private real estate and the tax efficiency angle. What is some background on you, Michael, tell us about your career, how did you make your wealth? And what eventually led you to start Origin Investments?
Michael: Well, I’ll take you all the way back. So I’ll take you when I was about 12 years old, I was introduced to real estate in a way. My grandfather operated Class C multi-families on the west side of Chicago. These are buildings that he bought out of a tax sale in the 1970s. Bought them really cheap. That was when people were just handing back the keys because they couldn’t make the numbers work anymore. And if you bought the taxes, you would own the building. And that’s what he did. And so what I would do in my summers is actually go there and work for him. And he was very scrappy, he understood, you know, how to operate these buildings cost efficiently, very hands-on. And those are great.
You know, I was 12 years old at that time, and I think he was paying me like $2 an hour, which was a lot of money in those days. And I would work, you know, 10, 12 hours and we were doing everything from salvage to unit renovations, things of that nature. And it was fun. And I loved to work and that was sort of my first experience in real estate. And then as I grew and went through, I went to DePaul University. I studied finance and econ. And then got a summer job my sophomore year when I was 19 years old at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and decided I absolutely loved it. And that is when I started my first career and it’s kind of crazy for me to think about that because I have a 19-year-old right now. And for me to think that he could be starting his first career is sort of mind boggling.
But that’s just how it happened for me. I fell into it. I loved it. I decided to push all my classes at night. And I worked my way up through the ranks. And ultimately, in 1997, I became a trader. I got an opportunity. So I stepped into the pits on I think January 3rd or 4th, and I had a great, a nine-year career, and I ended up then really retiring from that business after nine years. So that was just a great opportunity. You know, it was at a time where we could really benefit from asymmetric information. We had the edge in the pit. But near the end of my career, a few things changed. Number one, computers started to come in. So that edge started to disappear. And I always tell people, “Look, I wasn’t a good trader because I could see around corners, and I knew where the market was going. It was because I knew how to take advantage of mispricings in the market and do it, you know, very well.” And today, those are all done by quants now.
And the other thing that had changed is really my risk profile as an individual. So when I started trading, I was single. I really, you know, had no money to my name whatsoever. And I just decided to go for it. And I was about 27 years old. And then early on in my career, I met my now wife. We got married. We had kids. And I just sort of stacked up enough chips. And I said, “Look, I don’t want to do this anymore because if I have a very, very bad day that could change my life. But if I stack up more chips, nothing is going to change.” So I have really achieved far more than I ever set out to, so then it was sort of my next phase and what do I want to do, right?
And the next phase was really managing my wealth and generating income because I was living off my trading income. So, okay, how do I take this wealth or these assets and turn them into income and keep growing them? And so I went back to DePaul. I got a master’s in real estate. Started in 2006. I stayed at home and was retired for all about four months. And that was a great experience. And it was then that I got together with my partner who I’m with now, David Scherer, and we had known each other for four or five years. We were kindred spirits. We really thought about the world in the same way. He was also an Ultra High Net Worth investor. And we pooled our money together in real estate because of the things I just mentioned, right? We wanted to grow our wealth.
But it was really because we wanted to be stewards of our own money. And we just didn’t think anybody would do it better than we would because we had invested in alternatives, in real estate. And it was always two steps forward one step back. And, you know, couldn’t find anything great out there. And 2007 was a very different time than it is today because, you know, there weren’t webinars and there wasn’t all this proliferation of deals and different models out there. And we really set out to build an institutional platform for the individual investor. And we didn’t quite know it at that time because in the beginning, it was just us and our own money. But then we started inviting friends in and treating them, you know, the way we would want to be treated. And we had invested in a lot of alternatives and real estate along the way.
And I think that gave us a distinct advantage of understanding the client service side, the fee side, the alignment, everything that goes in to make a firm great, and then it transcended into, who do we want here at the firm to hire, to look for deals, to manage deals, etc.? And I think it’s really those three things, the alignment that we have with our investors over time, our proven ability to execute. And then the team that we’ve assembled today. You know, those are sort of the three pillars that make Origin great. And that’s kind of how I got to where I am today, but we’re very proud of what we built. We started with two investors back in ’07. We’re at 2,000 investment partners today. We run a total of four funds and have been ranked as a, you know, top decile manager for a track record in our previous fund. So it’s been a great run and we’re just looking to do more of the same going forward.
Jimmy: Well, that’s tremendous, Michael. Thanks for going way back to age 12 there. That was great how you started with your grandpa working for $2 an hour and worked your way up to where you are today. I think that’s tremendous background story on you. So you have a few different product offerings that you offer out of Origin Investment. Probably your core offering is your IncomePlus Fund, which has a lot of tax efficiencies built into it as well. Could you explain some of the tax efficiencies that are wrapped into that private real estate ownership structure?
Michael: Yeah, I would characterize the IncomePlus Fund as sort of what I’ll call our flagship fund. And the first thing was the strategy because historically we had operated closed-ended funds that were buy, fix, sell. And what came out of that is that we were selling really good assets because it was our strategy. That’s what we did. We bought high quality assets, we fixed them, we added value, and then we sold them. A few years later, we rang the register and we made very good money. The problem with that is as we sort of evolved in this business, and I wish I knew 14 years ago what I know today, is we would have done this a little bit differently. But really, in order to build long-term real wealth in any asset class, you have to buy and hold forever, right? And that goes with stocks, that goes with real estate. We all know somebody who bought a piece of property 20 years ago still holding on to it. They’ve refinanced out of it and made 10X on their money.
And so, you know, as we kept selling these assets, yes, we did well compared to our basis but then 2 years later, 3 years later, 4 years later, we’d see them and they’d be 30%, 40%, 50% higher because it was good real estate. And really good real estate should not be sold, it should just be refinanced. And refinancing is great because it’s tax free. You can take your money out, you don’t pay taxes on it. And you do that over and over. So the first big change for us was shifting from a buy, fix, sell, to a buy, fix, hold. And that was transformational. Because that’s really the way when you think about family offices and Ultra High Net Worth and pension funds, that’s exactly what they’re doing. They’re buying great real estate, they add value, and then they hold it forever. And generally, it’s the second investor in that deal that makes more money than the first investor. You know, you might buy a deal for $10 million, and put a few million dollars into it, and then sell it for $16 million or $17 million.
But the group buying it for $17 million, when they’re holding it for 20 years, that piece of real estate could grow to $50 million, $60 million, $70 million. That’s where the real money is. And that’s what we’re looking for and why we sort of changed this strategy. So that’s high level. Then when we get into the fund nuances, it’s a multi-strategy fund. So we build, buy, and lend in that fund, and it’s all multifamily. So 20% of the fund is dedicated towards build-to-core, which means that we’re engaging in ground-up development with the intention of holding these assets forever. And what that does for us, especially in today’s market, is it allows us to penetrate these cities like Nashville, like Austin, like Phoenix, and not overpay for assets and not be in a bidding war with 25 other companies like ours for properties that are already existing, and there is just a wall of capital out there for value-added projects.
And candidly, when we’re looking at the market today, it makes no sense. There’s an imbalance because existing properties 10, 15 years old, that need a value-add are trading, you know, 5% to 20% above replacement costs. So we don’t want to buy something that’s 15 years old for 5% above replacement costs, put another $20,000 per unit into it with the idea that we’re going to sell it for 40% above today’s replacement cost in 5 years. That makes no sense. We would rather build brand new because basis really matters. So that’s why we have this sort of build-to-core element, but only 20% of the fund is dedicated towards that. The other 80% is lending and then value add. Now I just mentioned we don’t like value add. We’re not doing anything in the middle.
So we have a portfolio of common equity properties. About 30% of the portfolio was dedicated to that. And then the other 50% is in preferred equity. And historically, preferred equity is not a tax efficient investment. But what we’ve done with this fund is a lot of modeling and make sure that the tax inefficiency of the preferred equity portion of the portfolio is offset through the excess depreciation that’s kicked off from the common equity portfolio and all that goes into a REIT structure, gets mixed up, and then, you know, we’re able to distribute an annual yield of…right now I think we’re at about 5.7% our annual yield to investors on a tax-free basis. So it’s incredibly tax efficient. Our bogey on that fund is about a 9% to 11% annualized return. People can invest all at once. The last year has been great.
Seventeen percent with the right managers on the alternative side, you can find a lot of alpha. And that’s where candidly I’ve done far better, you know, going into alts than I have in the public markets right over time, and it helps me sleep. And there’s times that liquidity is good. And there’s times that liquidity is bad. And I know that, you know, people talk about this liquidity premium, I actually think there should be an illiquidity premium because liquidity allows you to do really dumb things when markets get chaotic. And you should be able to as an individual, be able to budget yourself so you know what your liquidity needs are coming up over the next six months, a year, two years. So that’s something I manage and I always have, and it’s a personal preference.
So I adhered, you know, not probably as disciplined as I should be, to an asset allocation strategy. But I had real estate, I have private equity, I have venture, I have hedge funds, I have crypto, you know, a little bit of everything. And I think the rules of investing are changing a little bit, and these, you know, historical sort of 60, 40 allocations or, you know, maybe a small bucket of real estate or something like that, you know, and some hedge fund exposure. I think those are really being challenged in today’s world. And what worked 10 years ago may not work going forward. And like I already made the argument, I still don’t understand this, why real estate isn’t a bigger part of the portfolio. And I hear this from advisors a lot. You know, it’s 5% or 10% of the portfolio, but when you really do the math and you look at public REITs and how they’ve performed over the last 20, 30, 40 years, relative to the other…you know, to the S&P 500. It’s not even close, right?
If you want to do quantitative research, you should be 95% in real estate. Now, I’m not going to advocate that, and 5% of the rest in S&P, and you would have done way better. So it’s got tax efficiency at the public securities level, it’s got tax efficiency at the private level, it’s been a great asset class. And it really should, you know, maybe not be 95% of the portfolio, I’m exaggerating, but should probably be 10%, 15%, 20% of everybody’s portfolio. And certainly in the family office and Ultra High Net Worth world, it’s been a much larger allocation to those portfolios than it has been for, you know, the investor who’s maybe worth $1 million or $2 million.
Andy: Yeah, I totally agree. And that really resonated what you mentioned about the illiquidity premium. But as you stated, and this is something that Jimmy and I have discussed before, illiquidity can be a good thing because one of the biggest enemies of an individual investor or really any investor is behavioral risk is selling out at that market bottom at the wrong time, or just bad timing. So you could almost argue that there should be illiquidity premium because with that becomes that additional behavioral risk. But I find it really fascinating, you know, some of the things you discussed in your own portfolio, and I love it because when we’re talking to an asset manager, I like to find out what they’re doing with their own portfolio because that’s what your real ultimate thesis is. That’s what you obviously truly believe in with your own portfolio.
And it sounds to me it’s almost like a David Swensen, Yale endowment type model just with your own personal portfolio embracing these alts in these illiquid investments, maybe zigging when the stock market zags, or maybe when the market zags, these would zag too, except they’re not liquid. So you never really find out because you’re forced into that longer term holding period. And this goes back to what you mentioned earlier in the podcast, was you really get rewarded by finding a good asset and holding it for the long term, right? So I think that’s like the heart of that David Swensen endowment strategy is investing in these long-term assets. So that being said, what are the long-term trends? Like sort of zooming out, let’s say, we have an accredited investor, very High Net Worth investor who maybe has 5% or 10% of her portfolio in alts but maybe wants to increase that to 40% or 50% of her overall portfolio. What are the stories or trends that she should be thinking about on sort of that macro zoomed out basis to sort of drive that long term decision making? I mean, you already kind of pointed to real estate as an asset class. Are there any other trends or stories that you think High Net Worth investors should be considering as they begin to allocate more funds to alts?
Michael: Good question. I’m gonna go back to what you talked about, about David Swensen. He was a huge influencer on me personally and why I went so heavy into alts, and if you study his portfolio, a lot of his returns were made via venture and alts and real estate on that side. And he also had quite a large portfolio as well. I wouldn’t recommend that, you know, from a passive perspective that somebody goes into 40% or 50% of real estate. I’ll just say that, right? When you look at returns and risk, asset allocation is really, really important. I’m not an advisor, but I know enough to be dangerous here. So no tree grows in the sky. Real estate is really having its light in the sun right now or, you know, light of day. It’s doing incredibly well. And I think that what people should either sit down and have a portfolio plan for themselves or sit down with their advisor, and say, “Look, where does real estate fit in my portfolio? What am I trying to achieve?”
And real estate has a place and different strategies have a place, right? Real estate, you know, we’re lumping it into a category, but it can achieve a lot of different things, right? We have funds that produce growth and we have funds that produce income and we have funds that produce both. And you might sit down and say, “Look, I want to be 20% allocated real estate,” right? And make that decision based on the benefits it’s going to give to your portfolio, then just stick to it through thick and thin and understand that there are going to be times that, you know, real estate goes up and it’ll grow to 25%, 30%, 40% of your portfolio, and that’s when you kind of sell it off and bring it back to that 20%, and it goes down. And you have to be able to last through those times and look at your portfolio holistically.
And oftentimes what I’ve found is the best time to invest in a sector is you have to have conviction that over long periods of time that sector is going to do well, and when it’s very dark and bleak, those are the best times to invest in it. So I would really like, you know, not say to people like to peg 40% or 50%, right, or look at historical returns, but just have a true asset allocation strategy because that is the determinant of long-term returns more than asset selection or anything else, is that asset allocation strategy. And that came right out of Swensen’s book too. And that’s what he firmly believed in is just adhering to those lines and then tactically adjusting them over time. Does that answer your question? I think he had maybe a few different parts of that.
Andy: That absolutely does. And David Swensen, his book was very influential to me as well. And I think you are absolutely right that an investor needs to go back to their plan and have that plan that you stick through, through thick and thin. Having that gumption when the market maybe is in a draw-down or the real estate market is up or down. But having the ability to stick to the plan is really what’s going to deliver the returns that you want over multiple long-term market cycles. So for me a lot of times, on the private equity side, for me personally it’s been investing in myself, in my own private companies where I have some amount of control or active management, and to your point, the same thing with real estate, right?
So you’re identifying projects or investments where either you can add value as an active manager or at least you can spot the opportunity because you know that niche of the market very, very well. So what about an investor who’s maybe very High Net Worth but doesn’t want so much of an active role but would still like to allocate a healthy portion of their portfolio to alts? What types of funds or investments do you think such an investor should be looking at?
Michael: Well, first of all, I believe everybody should be investing in funds because unless you’re a full time professional, in real estate, it doesn’t make sense to go out and pick your own deal. Some people like that. They enjoy it. They can do that. I think there’s an inherent built-in structure in funds that benefits the investors that maybe people don’t understand. And that is that all the performances in a fund are cross-collateralized, right? So you’re building a portfolio and that’s what you’re paying the manager to do. And so if 10 of your deals do really well and 10 don’t do well and you make a little bit of money, well, the manager doesn’t get paid. So the manager is highly incented in a fund structure to make sure every deal works. And we actually, we’ve got a great track record. We’ve never lost money on a deal in a fund and it’s really because of that. Because when we go to credit committee and we have four or five people voting on whether or not a deal should go into the fund, they all look at that and they realize, “Look, if this is a bad deal, that hurts my payday,” right? And that’s me, my partner, our deal team, other people who are incentivized through the performance of the fund.
Now, for the manager what it gives us is permanent capital. So we can go to the market and we can go to the table. And when a deal is we have an answer, right? Well, how are you going to close? Well, we have a fund, right? And that’s a huge advantage for us out there in the market. And I love that. I want to touch on one thing that you said, one of the advantages of the IncomePlus Fund, and this is we work with a lot of wealth managers, but the advantage is that you can invest all of your capital at once and be instantly diversified in our fund, right, across our current investments. And that’s much different than a closed-ended fund especially a buy, fix, sell, where we’re constantly…where we’re calling capital over long periods of time.
And then we’re selling deals and trying to manage that asset allocation in a series of closed-ended funds is much more difficult than when you have an open-ended fund and you invest on day one. If your million dollars grows to $2 million, you can sell some off. You can sell 10%, 20%, 30%, whatever you want that part of the portfolio. So, it’s really been well received by wealth managers for that reason because what we found is a lot of people they don’t like the capital calls. They want to invest in something, invest all their money at once. So it’s a great way of investing in another feature of that fund that we thought long and hard about.
Jimmy: That’s great Michael. Yeah. That’s one of your product offerings, in your flagship offering as you mentioned before that IncomePlus Fund. But I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you about your Opportunity Zone Fund offering as well. That’s how we met a couple years ago. You guys were one of the first fund issuers in the Qualified Opportunity Fund space. And with the huge run-up in the equities market over like really the past decade plus year since the end of the Great Recession, but especially since it bottomed out at the start of the pandemic about a year and a half ago now, there’s a lot of unrealized capital gains sitting on individual investors balance sheets. And I keep pointing to Opportunity Zones as a really great place to go for a couple of reasons. One, for capital gains tax mitigation. But two, to really provide you with an option or maybe even an excuse to diversify away from maybe a more traditional 60, 40 public portfolio into Alts and into real estate. Can you tell us a little bit about your QOZ Fund? I believe this is actually Fund II for you if I’m not mistaken.
Michael: We just launched Fund II last week. You are correct. You know, what I tell people, Jimmy, and you’ve heard this story before, but if you want to be in real estate and you’re okay with ground-up development risk, there is no better place to invest than a QOZ Fund. And I would tell anybody that if you have capital gains and you can invest in a QOZ Fund and you want to allocate more to real estate, that is the place to go. Because when you do the calculus and you look at the difference between investing capital gains and getting the full benefits of the QOZ program or investing after tax money in the same types of deals, the after-tax wealth that you’re going to create in a QOZ Fund is about 75% greater. So there’s nothing that even comes close to it. And as tax efficient as the IncomePlus fund is, the QOZ Fund blows it away. But it’s for a different type of investor. And we know that not everybody has capital gains to invest in QOZ as well.
It’s interesting as I’ve watched this market evolve over the last few years, this came out of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. And nobody really, like, talked about it in 2017. It started to become something in 2018. A lot of times these regulations are so arduous, there’s so much compliance that you ignore them and you don’t do anything. And then, it started piquing our interests around 2018 and we started learning more and more about it. We were a little skeptical like I think most people were. And then what we realized was, “Hey, we’re already working in QOZ areas.” We were deploying fund III at that time. And some of the deals in Fund III were in Qualified Opportunity Zone areas. And we started scratching our head and really looking at this and our team did more and more research, and realized that, “Look, they’re not all good but I would say about 5% of these Qualified Opportunity Zones are great and we’re already there. So why don’t we do this because our base of investors is 100% taxable.”
So it made all the sense in the world for us as investors, for our investor base for us to go in this. And at the time, if you remember this, we went in late ’18, took our first dollars in 2019, where I identified some deals in ’18. And then there were all of these funds that announced we’re going to do a $500 million fund, a $1 billion fund, a $2 billion fund. And we didn’t announce anything in our fund. We literally said we’re not putting a target on this because we don’t know. And that’s how we approached this, “Look, we’re going to find deals, we’re going to raise money, we’re going to bring people in.” And that’s what we did in 2019. In fact, there was a period of about four or five months where we shut the fund down because we had too much capital coming in. And we really didn’t understand the extent of our pipeline. But our pipeline team did a great job out there, our pipeline filled up, we brought in more and more money. And fast forward through 2020 up until this year, we finally closed our QOZ Fund at about $275 million. And I think that puts us at like one of the top three funds out there.
So what I found interesting was a lot of these firms out there, they were announcing billion dollar funds and $500 million funds. They just fizzled out because it’s a very difficult fund to actually administer from a compliance side, but the benefits are too great to ignore. Now, we’ve just launched Fund II last week. And Fund II really has benefited from all the work we’ve been doing for the last couple years. And I would say also because the market has gotten a little bit just narrower because the amount of competition has left. So it puts us in a great position. We have three of what I will call the largest and best QOZ sites in the south and southeast tied up for Fund III. We’re really excited about this fund. We’ve announced sort of a $300 million cap on this fund. So it’s a little bit different. It’s much easier to quantify this time around. But even like the last one, David and I, we invested I think a little more than $10 million in the last one. And it’s what we use as our primary vehicle to defer and reduce and eliminate our taxes. And we’re going to be investing in this one as well. So we’re excited.
Jimmy: No, that’s tremendous. I’m excited to hear and learn more about it as well. I know you guys just opened it earlier this month, I believe, if I’m not mistaken. And congratulations to you on the successful close of the $275 million Fund I. You’re absolutely right that is one of the largest funds that I’ve come across. There are only one or two that I’ve seen that are bigger than that, so tremendous work there. Well, Michael, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you today, as always. Before we go, though, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and Origin Investments?
Michael: Origininvestments.com, you can go there. We make it really easy for people to interact with us. So you can actually connect with somebody in our Investor Relations Department right there on the website, and you can download all of our information by filling out a quick form. So if you want any information about the IncomePlus Fund, our other funds, we have the decks right there. And you can always email too, [email protected].
Jimmy: Fantastic. Thanks for that, Michael. And for our listeners out there today, we will, as always, have show notes available on the AltsDb website. You can find those show notes at altsdb.com/podcast. And there you’ll find links to all of the resources that we discussed today with our guest, Michael Episcope. Michael, again, thank you for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure.
Michael: Thank you for having me. My pleasure.